Old & New IGITY Forums

Discuss anything related to IGITY here!
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AndrewGustin
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Old & New IGITY Forums

Post by AndrewGustin » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:41 pm

IGITY has been challenging the way that people think about God and Time for over a decade now! In this time, many different people from around the world have contributed their thoughts and ideas to the IGITY Discussion Forum. With the transition to a new website, it was time to upgrade to a new verison of the Forum. Unfortunately, the old entries would not transition to the new Forum with ease. As a result, I have been forced to compile all of the former Forum posts from 2006-2016 into two roughly chronological posts. There is a Unix timestamp and message title before each post to help break them apart. Forgive the length and format of the following posts, but it was all I could do to preserve the ideas. Some of the original author names, when not included in the post, have been lost. I hope that these writings continue to spark discussion into the future and that the IGITY Discussion Forum becomes live with collective brainstorming once again!

-Andrew Gustin

AndrewGustin
Site Admin
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Old & New IGITY Forums

Post by AndrewGustin » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:10 pm

1176179821 Re: Experiences meditating

you know, I have never meditated, but I think I will try it. I have prayed at different times in my life, usually not to "god" though. I have usually prayed as an experience to express something to a loved one that has died. After my grandma died I "prayed" one night...standing outside looking up at the stars I prayed that she would come to me in some form or another. I spoke out loud as if she could hear me. I felt so many things were left unsaid and I needed closure. I was skeptical anything would come of this. I began having these dreams...vivid nightmares about her and my family. Most of them involved death and began my temporary insomnia at the age of 15. I would not go to sleep at night...I also prayed again...this time that the dreams would stop. I had another dream this one was peaceful and calm, letting my mind put closure on the situation. Long story short, I think that our minds our powerful. I think that prayer for some is comfort. My prayers about my grandmother and the dreams that came of them have nothing to do with god, but rather my own thoughts on life and death and my grandma. Prayer for some gives comfort when there is nothing else to do about a situation. Prayer in actuality does nothing more than let time run its course. I'll let you know how the meditating goes. any tips on meditation?



1176090692 the big debate

which do you believe?




1176090290 Morality

Do animals have a sense of morality? I surely think some do. So is this morality inherited or is it due to the animal feeling God?




1176086599 Experiences meditating

I know many of you have at least experimented with meditation, so tell me your thoughts on it. For those of you who pray, how do you compare the experience of prayer to that of meditation?




1176087797 Interesting

This is a very interesting and well-thought-out Web site. Congratulations. But I wonder, if God is time, is time not God as well? What do others think?




1178681891 Re: Interesting

"if God is time, is time not God as well"

bigbg,

You bring up an interesting claim. Many things are logically reversible. For example, [b:043d1]5 x 4 = 20[/b:043d1], and [b:043d1]20 = 5 x 4[/b:043d1]. However, logic [u:043d1]does not[/u:043d1] state that [b:043d1]if A = B, B must = A[/b:043d1]. A good example of this: Trees are tall, and therefore tall are trees. The reciprocal just doesn't make much sense at all. The same idea applies to God and Time. As is stated on my God Needs Time page, God uses time in everything he does. He is powerless without it. Therefore, it isn't a stretch to say that God is time. Rather than having a God that uses time, God isn't necessary at all. Time is all that is required to create, because Time is the tool which God is fabled to use.

So to say that Time is God, one is suggesting that God does indeed exist. If Time is God, then IGITY becomes a religion instead of a philosophy. A religion with Time as its God. The whole reasoning behind IGITY is to do away with the concept of God, and explain everything that God is used for with Time. I suppose if you wish to say that Time is God you are welcome to, but it implies that Time is something other than just being Time. I personally do not wish to worship Time, and therefore I say that God is Time, but Time is not God. But if you must have something in this universe to call God (which I do not), I guess Time would be the most reasonable candidate. Thanks for the thoughts.

ag




1181228790 Time is God

I thought of this idea on my own this morning. It just hit me all of a sudden while I was trying to get back to sleep. I wrote everything down and then found your site.

This is what I wrote:

[u:30c46]Time is God[/u:30c46]
Time is infinite
Time heals
Time is everywhere at once
Time created everything
Time is measurable
Time destroy
Time allows for evolution
Time cannot be stopped
Time is compatible with Science

Bonus: We are all followers of time
----------
I've been an atheist for many years but since this definition of god is measurable and can explain so much, it's the only kind of god that I can believe in. I must admit, I was disappointed for a moment that I wasn't the first to think of this idea but it was also a comfort to know I wasn't alone too. I've found many people have written on this theme. The best part, is that 'Time is god' is a truth that you can come to on your own without guidance.




1181246206 Other people who have written similar things...

I came across this site with a similar idea:

<!-- m --><a href="http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/juanzs ... zsalzar</a><!-- m -->


[quote:7b0ad]
A common Omnipotent Being
Submitted by JUANZSALZAR on Thu, 11/30/2006 - 8:24pm.

God. An all powerful all knowing entity that brought upon our entire existence, Wikipedia described it to be &quot;God is the deity believed by monotheists to be the supreme reality. He is believed variously to be the creator, or at least the sustainer, of the universe&quot; Many of us as humans belief God to be a psyical entity that controls our entire being. Many belief God is Not real. that God is just A fabrication of mans imagination, But god is not only that but more. you see some people belief it to be A spiritual entity that appears as we do. He is said to apear as we do because we were all made in his image. this infact is Both right and wrong. God is not a pysical being. for us to say that God looks simalar to us with at least simalar attributes is quite simply idiotic. although that represintation gives us as humans a simpler explaination and visual representaion to how It looks. We can not simply say that that is who God looks. God Can not be seen. God can not be heard.God can not be proved. God can not be disproved. God simply is. A simple explaination to this is the fact that God is an entity. In catholism God is 3 entities. but one at the same time. many find that hard to understand and explain. and even understand but how can one entity be 3 entities and not be 3 entities. the answer is simple. there is one other commonly used entity that has the same attributes. another entity that can not be destroyed that rules our existance and even created us as human beings, it molded our beliefs and will always be with us at all times anywhere never leaving our side. This particular enity is called. Time. Time is made up of three enitities. Past , Present, and future , It too is also one entity on its own and aids us all in our daily lives. times changes things evolves us. time fixes all and destroys all and we can do nothing about it. &quot;time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe&quot;
[/quote:7b0ad]




1181248377 TIMEGOD

Well I wouldn't go as far as worship but this was interesting:
<!-- m --><a href="http://qc.indymedia.org/uploads/2006/11 ... ds/2006/11 ... lender.gif</a><!-- m -->

and

<!-- m --><a href="http://qc.indymedia.org/news/2006/11/94 ... 431.php</a><!-- m -->

Taking the idea to the extreme!




1181430267 Re: Time is God

Elena,

Would it be okay with you for me to post a page about GIST and your independent conclusions?

Andrew




1181569043 Re: Time is God

Sure you can. Just call me Elena P. (don't want people googling me!)
My thoughts are open to change of course!




1196747099 well...

Is anyone still checking these? just want to make sure these forums arent dead before i give some good input




1197159859 Re: well...

i would love to hear your opinion. i think a few check often, and the more posts the more to consider.




1197160025 HOW

Post here how you came upon the igity pages.




1197165625 Re: Experiences meditating

I was talking with my friend Erin at a party yesterday. We discussed meditation among other things. She told me of the one method she has used to get into a meditative state, and I thought I would share it. She says that she visualizes herself on the very edge of a black hole, but her body is not effected by the gravity. All of her thoughts are sucked out of her mind and into the black hole. It sounded pretty interesting, so tonight I tried it with success. It was actually one of the easiest transitions that I have had in awhile. nice.




1197349317 Re: HOW

quite literally google searching 'god is time' to see if anyone else shared my theory.
seems like something a child might try, but i suppose it worked




1197349562 Re: well...

here is some parts of posts i have made on other sites...

ive been writing a bit on the time-god subject, and doing some recent thinking and came up with something like you have been talking about, and it is actually quite easy to understand.

time is a period between two intervals in which events occur. therefore, time cannot be created as creation is an event and incurs time both before and after said event. using this logic, you discover time is infinite as it cannot be destroyed or ended either.

with this knowledge, it is only logical to assume that all events have, will again, are, and will continue to occur given the infinite nature of space (if time is infinite, space must be also). this means that EVERYTHING has always, will happen again, and is currently happening at and infinite number of points in space.

elaborating on the 'god is time' theory(using the information above), there is logic in that as well. Some would say god created the earth, but using our theory, you could say time, in its infinite nature, has allowed earth to exist, just as it has allowed all other events, like humans.

now you say god or infinity, and obviously i lean towards infinity, but i believe infinity may leave room for a 'god', although not exactly a western christian view of a divine entity.

please tell me what you think, revise if you have some input.




1197749050 Re: well...

Peytonr,

Thank you so much for your input. It is exciting to see that other people have arrived at the same conclusions as I have. I like a lot of what you wrote.
time is a period between two intervals in which events occur. therefore, time cannot be created as creation is an event and incurs time both before and after said event. using this logic, you discover time is infinite as it cannot be destroyed or ended either.


I agree entirely that time is infinite, and has to be infinite, with no ending or beginning.
with this knowledge, it is only logical to assume that all events have, will again, are, and will continue to occur given the infinite nature of space (if time is infinite, space must be also). this means that EVERYTHING has always, will happen again, and is currently happening at and infinite number of points in space.


So you make a good point here, too. Given the nature of infinity, it is entirely logical to assume that events have, are, and will continue to occur. I do have a problem with space being infinite, however. While space could be infinite, I don't believe that it has to be just because time is. While both space and time are dimensions, time is a different sort of dimension than space in that we only experience it moving in one direction, whereas with space you can travel backwards.

Lets take for example the most common scientifically accepted view of the creation of our universe. Some 15.3 billion years ago, an infinitely dense point of matter expanded into what we see in the night sky today. Before this expansion, we have no way of knowing what the universe was like. To avoid calling upon a divine creator, we can argue that time is infinite. This would suggest that before the big bang, there was a big crunch which collapsed the previous universe into this infinitely dense point. So, if the universe has been expanding from a point of no size at a finite speed for a finite amount of time, there has to be a limit to the size of the universe. The universe is still expanding and even accelerating in its expansion, but I am not sure that it has to be infinite. This is also saying that it could be spatially infinite. There is just no way of knowing.

I guess you could argue that even though all the matter of the universe was in an infinitely dense point, that the space still existed, but was just devoid of matter. But as you said about time, it is described as the period between two events. And so does space need matter to be described? Even outer space which we consider to be a vacuum still has random hydrogen atoms floating around.

So, if space is infinite just as time is, then you are completely correct. Every event is happening an infinite amount of times in an infinite amount of places. But assuming only time is infinite, and space collapses and expands, the same cannot be said. If there are a limited number of places in this universe, it is less likely that the same events could occur in the infinite expanse of time.
elaborating on the 'god is time' theory(using the information above), there is logic in that as well. Some would say god created the earth, but using our theory, you could say time, in its infinite nature, has allowed earth to exist, just as it has allowed all other events, like humans.


I like this view of things. Given an infinite amount of time, all things will eventually happen, including the existence of our earth and the rise of an intelligent civilization. It isn't that the earth was created by a god, but rather by the probabilistic chance that infinite time brings about. So, for creation, god truly is time.
now you say god or infinity, and obviously i lean towards infinity, but i believe infinity may leave room for a 'god', although not exactly a western christian view of a divine entity.


It doesn't have to be god or infinity, but it cannot be neither. You have to call upon god, infinity, or both, to explain the beginning of our universe. To say that neither god nor infinity exists is to deny the fundamental question of how we got here. Still, it is possible to believe in a god who exists alongside infinite time, or even a god that is infinite time. Personally, I am just a believer of time, without the god included. But again, if god is time, i guess believing in time leaves a little room for god anyway.

Thank you so much for your post, Peytonr. I am curious, for how long have you been theorizing these ideas, and what thoughts first developed into the concept that god is time? Also, I might eventually turn our discussion into another page, if you don't mind. You bring up some interesting points that make for good discussion and thought. Feel free to post any other ideas you have.

Andrew Gustin




1204259259 Re: well...

sorry to take so long to get back, hope you havent quite given up on the forums yet.

just to add on to the last post, i didnt mean to say that it is possible to have neither god nor infinity, but possibly that time has allowed for the creation of a godly figure.

anyway, my ideas started to form when i was 16, where all of the best ideas started: camping with my best friend. the ideas i expressed were products of our journey camping/canoeing every day for about two weeks down a river. its really a mind-opening experience. we were actually with a group of about 10 other people our age, and the guys of the group have a little tradition of trading philosophies each time we meet(usually about once a year, we all work at a summer camp). its a pretty diverse group as far as ideas go, as we have religious fanatics, a couple who think like myself, and a few others who have completely varying ideals, which makes for a pretty interesting debate.

in truth i have only pondered this theory for about a year know, but the idea developes quite a bit from time to time.




1205103868 Re: well...

Peyton,

Thank you for also not giving up on these forums yet. It has gotten off to a small start, but I have already reached two other complete strangers who have thought similar thoughts. I just bought the domain <!-- w --><a href="http://www.igity.com">www.igity.com</a><!-- w --> to forward to my site too, so hopefully that will draw in some more thinkers. This php bulletin board has a lot of potential, it just needs to get the input of more independent minds.

[quote:f94d9]
just to add on to the last post, i didnt mean to say that it is possible to have neither god nor infinity, but possibly that time has allowed for the creation of a godly figure.
[/quote:f94d9]

I am glad you clarified what you meant, because its a different way to contemplate the notion. Sort of implying that time has in fact created God. Now by that I wonder do you mean that time could have allowed for a creator who creates everything using time, or are you rather referring to the perceived notion of God, as is claimed by devout religious people? I think either has to be possible, but the latter seems much more likely.

Your stories of camping and canoing with friends are great. I spend a lot of time camping and hiking in the woods. Escaping the daily chaos of civilization and society just seems to clear the mind and allow ideas to flow much easier. I can also relate to the irregular progression of thought. I can go a couple months without any new thoughts and then suddenly I have three new page ideas and a reaffirmed dedication to the theory.

My last question to you is where are you from? It would be interesting to make an image of the locations of all individuals that contact me who have thought similar thoughts. Its already an international affair, and I have high hopes for the future. The more you consider the implications, the more right the idea seems. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and ideas, and I hope that you continue to post new ones when they come to you, no matter how crazy they may seem. I greatly enjoy the discussions.

Andrew Gustin




1205370125 Re: well...

i live in the DFW area of central texas, and most of my camping and outdoor living is done in fort worth.

And to clarify further, my personal thoughts have led me to believe that time would create a divine being, but not discontinue its own creation of physical objects, although this divine being may or may not have the abiliy to influence or manipulate them.
any thoughts?




1205386476 Re: well...

Thanks for the information. I have added a page displaying a map and the approximate locations of IGITY readers abound.

So the idea you bring up is good. If time creates everything, it is perfectly logical to state that a divine being of some sort was created by time. Whether or not this entity has any power over the physical world is a point to be argued, but it seems that there is little evidence to suggest that it does. This is assuming that the current theories to explain the evolution of the universe hold true (but they are revised constantly).

Still, if there was an entity of some sort created by time, what purpose would it serve? One of the most practical reasons for a God is to explain creation. If time is the force which creates, what would the reason for existence of this entity be? I guess that question might not matter much, since one could argue there are plenty of things that time has created that have no apparent reason or rhyme.

But to answer my own question, perhaps the entity exists because people believe it exists. If an idea can be described by a culture and told as truth, then it really does exist in the mind. Or maybe the purpose behind a time-created God is just to give people the calming thought that there is something bigger than mankind, and that in times of despair there is always someone to turn to. It is this comfort that makes the idea of God difficult to dismiss.

Thanks again for your ideas. It feels great to have some new thoughts to contemplate. I also am glad to put this discussion forum to use, as I've had it for nearly a year. Keep checking back and let me know of any developments or brain-children.

Andrew




1206056631 Re: well...

Hello hello.
First of all, its awfully nice to see other people with a similar theory, and you really have some very good points and ideas that interest me greatly.
I would just like to make a few suggestions if i may.

Well, mainly one- that God exists outside of time.
That is to suggest that both God and time are two seperate beings, both balanced and needing of each other. For despite your atheism, you dont deny that the sole purpose of a god is to create or to explain creation (forgive me if thats not how you put it). And if it is possible for god to create and/or manipulate within time, it perhaps suggests that time itself is a manipulative property, thus god can control time, or indeed god created time. And of course God cannot create something he needs in order to exist and this is where i think people have the trouble explaining god- that God 'Needs' time, only in so far as creating.
i.e. Although time may be infinite, (and i agree with you that it probably is) it may not necessarily be a force of creation, for although all things may happen, also all things must be created, perhaps including time.
Thus time and god are two separate beings that need or rather work with each other.

Its complex i know, and certainly not without it's faults, plus ive probably not explained myself too well, but please let me know what you think and i look forward to discussing more in the indefinite, infinite future.




1206152676 wow

Jingo jango,

Thank you so much for your kind words. It is wonderful to know that I am reaching people and that others have come to similar conclusions. I also appreciate your suggestions, as conversation and input.

You have some good points that you bring up. So if you believe that God must exist outside of time, what do you define as or how do you describe this God? If time is infinite, which we both agree it likely is, then how could it be created? Creation implies a beginning point, a moment of conception. For infinite time, time has to have always existed, and therefore could not have been created.

You also say
&quot;jingo jango&quot;:d66c9 wrote: all things must be created
[/quote:d66c9] , so if this is true, then God must have also been created...however, if God can stand outside of the realm of creation, why can't time, too? If we are to break matter down to its most basic parts, we will find bits of negative charge orbiting a concentration of positive charge (Electrons orbiting the protons/nucleus of an atom). These two charges are opposite, and therefore in effect cancel each other out to have an overall neutrally charged atom (assuming it is not ionic). In a manner of speaking, atoms aren't really made of anything; just two opposite charges interacting. So if atoms could spontaneously come into existence (since E=mc^2, energy can turn into matter), then all things don't necessarily need to be created.

You are right to say that
&quot;jingo jango&quot;:d66c9 wrote: God 'Needs' time, only in so far as creating
[/quote:d66c9] ... But it is his use of time for Creation which is so important. Whether the Bible is taken literally or not, it is clear that without time, God could not create. The Genesis creation story explicitly says how over the course of 7 days (regardless of the length of a day) that the earth and heavens were created. So although this is the only circumstance where God needs time, time is the key to one of his most fundamental powers.

So in essence, you have three possibilities: God created time, time created God, or God and time have always co-existed. If God created time, time cannot be infinite, but the Biblical story of Creation is incomplete. If God and time have always co-existed, then its possible that God uses the powers of time to create, and the biblical story of creation is accurate. If time created God, this would suggest that God has never existed, and is just an entity created by man to explain the processes of time in a deterministic way (ie. God is time).

Explaining creation using a God has its advantages and appeals. Things that happen seem to then have a reason, and fate and destiny are realistic possibilities. It also gives people a sense of something &quot;bigger&quot; out there, and that there is someone they can turn to in times of despair.

I also believe that explaining creation using time has major advantages and appeals too. To clarify time as a force of creation: it isn't as if time has any active duty in creation, rather that time allows for other forces and physical laws such as gravity, electromagnetism, and subatomic particle interaction to randomly create elements, minerals, compounds, molecules, amino acids, and eventually the beginnings of life.

The problem is that all of this is just speculation, as there is no real proof of whether God, time, or a combination created the universe. It seems clear that time has to have had some part in the creation process, but I believe it is possible that God did not. This isn't to say that God couldn't have a part in creation, but just that it is possible to create without God Time, the physical laws of the universe, and probabilistic chance are enough to accomplish the creation process.

I know my arguments have holes in them, as this is a work in progress. I am very glad that you decided to post and share your thoughts. Everything that you said makes sense to me and is entirely possible. I am also glad to hear the thoughts and opinions of someone who is not an atheist. It is encouraging that people who believe in God still recognize the importance of time. I hope to hear back from you and what you think of the arguments I put forth above. Also, where are you from? I will add you to the Igity map. And what did you search for to come upon my page? I look forward to further discussions. Thank you.

Andrew




1215627441 Re: Time is God

also came to the same conclusion that god is time, independantly a few years ago . without time nothing would exist if time was to end it would begin again




1215868352 Re: Time is God

gaz,

It is great to hear that yet another person also independently arrived at the same conclusion as I have. What part of the country/world are you from, I'll add you to the map. Very interesting thought &quot;if time was to end it would begin again&quot;...implying that even if time seemed to have a finite value, and ended, that actually it is infinite and continuous. I will have to give that some more thought. Thanks for your story and insight!

Andrew




1224404971 Re: Time is God

Just when I thought the collective unconscious was letting me down I discovered this site!
Greetings, I have thought much upon this subject and have reached a number of conclusions upon the subject at hand. Speaking of hands, What do a clock and God have in common? They both have a face and left and right hands, the concepts they represent all cotrolled by their movements. Time has always fascinated me, yet it wasn't until I arrived at the same conclusion as you have that I truly began to notice it. Here is my theory on that which has no beginning that we can comprehend.
As my thoughts ventured towards the stars as they are prone to do, I came upon the topic of Black Holes. If Black Holes consume both light and matter could they not consume time? If time is everywhere that is somewhere, what happens when that somewhere is sucked into a confined environment from which there is no escape? My thoughts are that as a black hole absorbs the surrounding time/light/matter it grows larger, in much the same way as a sponge absorbs water. Due to this analogy, Water shall be the medium of choice to express this concept.
The levels of time/light/matter, so immeasurably vast in their quantities, become compressed into a fundamental point, indeed THE fundamental point, so often spoken of yet never understood. What if, due to the sheer gravity within the black hole, a galaxy or 8 became little more that a point of matter which retained all the attributes it had before entering the black hole? Due to the black hole's gravitational pull a significant change in perspective (may) occur where an atom that was once, say the size of our sun (perspectively) is re-released into the cosmos the size of a typical hydrogen atom. Now picture that occuring with entire galaxies of atoms, all retaining the same constants they were governed by before as a drop of water.
That single drop would (theoretically) contain all the energies, elements and building blocks necessary for the creation of a universe.

Lemniscate




1224405858 Re: Time is God

I'm from New Zealand.
Land of the long white cloud.
How I thank the time responsible for the advent of the internet.

Peace




1224820397 Re: The Flow of Time

Lemniscate,

Let me just say that I really enjoyed your writings. You hit on some fascinating concepts and ideas. I will have to read through it a few more times and give it some contemplation before I would even know how to respond. I am so glad that you found the site and felt inclined to contribute your thoughts. I have started graduate school and therefore haven't had much time to think and write about these sorts of things, but your post has renewed my excitement. I will chew the watershperes over for awhile and let you know what I think. Thanks again for your insights...its great to get new perspectives! <!-- s:idea: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_idea.gif" alt="Idea" title="Idea" /><!-- s:idea: -->

Andrew




1224469214 The Flow of Time

Is there a religion where you do not allocate time to observing the unobservable? No. All religions are true, for all religions are defined by their explanations for natural phenomena and the arcane knowledge gathered over the ages. Monotheistic, Polytheistic, it is all the equal with the only true difference being the number of aspects the one constant is divided into, hardly a justifiable reason for war. I particularly enjoy this concept due to the capacity for the Greek Gods,of whom I grew up with, (not in the religious sense but the conceptual). Does Time discriminate between races? Can an African outrun a European? Each race is gifted with certain talents that allow the development of skills. A skill is but a dedication of Time upon a certain subject, themselves and their environment. The more Time that is spent upon it, the easier the task becomes. When that task has progressed over Time, the ideas of one generation are shared with the next so they may draw upon the knowledge of the past and thus better their understanding. With age, comes wisdom. With an age of wisdom comes intelligence.

Lemniscate




1224568590 Re: Time is God

To continue with the universal sponge analogy. Once that sponge reaches saturation point, the collected 'water' emerges from the surrounding environment as a single fundamental drop. It breaks the threshold, emerging in an unmarked sphere of Space. The action of a drop of water hitting a sphere of water, slowed down considerably, depicts the chaotic forces present in the moment of contact. As it enters the new environment, it creates the &quot;slump&quot; form that we associate with the fabric of space/time. For as it gathers speed and is impressed upon the surface, it bends, allowing for the drop to gain room by forcing the water in question to be propelled away until eventually, it falls back down, enveloping the new arrival and adding to the expansion of ripples.
Ever icreasing the distance from the point of contact, the ripples and the fundamental drop progress four dimensionally in every direction. Length, Width, Height and Time defining their movements, but not guiding them. What are the ripples created by the drop seen as vibrations made visible by the presence of an observable medium? The answer is Energy. What would happen if those energy ripples were concentrated as they interweaved over the surface of the sphere? Certain combinations causing certain variable factors. It could then be presumed that there was a force present in this vacuum that could and would vibrate. This particular medium has certain traits unique amongst the fundamental forces. Instead of disspating the energy received, it releases ripples of energy which generate yet more energy as they travel through this peculiar medium.

Electro-magnetism is a curious thing. Do you know how microphones work? They employ a phenomenon known as electro-magnetic transduction to generate the energy required to duplicate sound. A magnet contained in a wire core will cause the wire to vibrate as the sound disturbs the magnetic field. The wire coil collects this energy and sends it down the cable to be amplified and thus heard through yet another electromagnetic transducer, the loudspeaker. Speakers work on the polar opposite of this phenomenon. The magnet is free floating and the coil immovable, The energy from the wire is used to agitate the magnetic field causing the methodic yet effective movement of the cone driver. In, out. Positive charge, negative charge. End result. Sound? Energy? Both are correct.
It is important to note that electro-magnetism by itself cannot generate energy until such a time that it ceases to be space and becomes inhabited by matter. The watersphere acts like a waste of space and is therefore ideal for growing a universe. Hey it evens comes with its own gardener! Music.

Based on my understanding of the Octave Universe there are 8 differing galaxies, 8 keys in an octave. And 8 frequencies for those keys. They are all used in association with music and therefore, sound. It only follows that each individual shape represents a key, with the planets acting like smoke upon a ray of light. allowing the unseen to be seen. If there are these massive waveforms present in the stars it would suggest that they were, in effect producing sound. Producing energy. If Matter is Chaos, Electro-magnetism is Harmony. For Time exists where there is Matter. Sound exists where there is Matter. Matter exists where there is Time and Sound.
The placement of galaxies, the planetary movements, without exception are all products of magnetic influence. Pythagoras coined the term, Music of the Spheres for a reason. Matter hurtles through space until it meets resistance and settles into an orbit. Settles into an Octave. Could it be that as matter travells through this medium it generates a frequency which close planetary bodies are attuned towards? The collective forming the Music of the Spheres? One giant solar sound system playing the song of the cosmos? Up is up and down is down when dealing with the planets of our solar system. It forms the uniform elliptical shape we are familiar with. Flat and faultless. Unless you consider the 'Planet X' conspiracy of which I understand but am not yet sure of its authenticity. The Pythagorean comma, the thirteenth note. Bringing disharmony to the fine tuned celestial machine. The 'remix' of the original song if you will. This harmonic oscillator is but a fraction of a fraction of a collective Galaxy. To shift perspective, do the Galaxies themselves follow a common magnetic north? Indeed they do. This would mean that space, while it may lack physical things would still has a top and a bottom.
A Positive and a Negative.

Anti-Matter?
Electro-Magnetic?
As above, so below.

Following the watersphere analogy and considering its attributes which are electro-magnetic it only follows that this sphere, this watersphere, follows the same intelligent design as the planets contained inside it. This would suggest the waterspheres inclusion in a harmonic oscillator of its own. Inside a Galaxy of its own. Inside a Universe of its own. Inside a watersphere of its own....
And thus the loop begins.
Is any of it plausible? I have no idea.
I failed maths everytime without fail and can only solve the simplest of equations, let alone the variable factors of a concept using calculations and (shudder) formulae.
In conclusion,
Time is Chaos.
Sound is Harmony.
Matter is the instrument.
Together they make the sweetest music.

&quot;The universe is an ocean of uncertainty.
Questions, Queries, Hypothesis, Theories.
Who is right?
Who is wrong?
I personally understand things in the most enjoyable manner possible. If there is an alternative description I will prefer it over the other without saying that the true description is incorrect .
Clouds are solid and can be ridden upon.
Not correct, yet more enjoyable that the truth.
The God's control the weather.
There will be light showers in the morning followed by scattered snow showers to 800 meters&quot;.

At the end of the day,
it is all a matter of perception. Too many people don't the pattern of the wallpaper by choosing to see a wall instead. One of the reasons why I find this site so pleasant. Another reason being that I have never actively pursued forum discussions due to lack of interest. And books, lots and lots of books.
There are few things more interesting than an Epiphany of Theophany!
And I'm afraid books is one of them. For they are but the the progression of an individual/s thought processes over a given time transposed into the language of circles and lines interpreted by the brain as vowels, consonants and concepts.

Thank you for listening to my rant.

Lemniscate




1224571370 Re: the big debate

I must apologise for the amount of posts. I had never really begun thinking about this in depth(conceived in January) until recently when I had a tumultuous series of events occur over a 2 week period. I will not bore you with the details but I fely as powerless as an autumn leaf challenging the Anemoi. Full of extreme high and low points the sheer nature of time confounded me with its (insert possible definition here).
The term 'believe' can be applied to something true no matter what evidence there is opposing it. To understand however is to not be beholden to prior knowledge that may prevent you from personal growth. All knowledge is sacred, apart from the knowledge that prevents the gathering of more, creating in effect theoretical dead zones where ideas are destroyed before they can be conceived. This is a phenomenal waste of potential for such an obscure reason. Infinity is but an observation of time. Its symbol the direct result of time dedicated to its conception. They are not seperate, but one. The mobius strip, chosen symbol of the creator, has but one edge, infinity has but one duration. Indeed there is but one moment. Now. For past, present, and future all exist, they do not stop existing once they go from present into past. The past is the history of the present and the present is the history of the future.

Lemniscate
The circle that is not a circle that is still a cycle




1224913748 Re: The Flow of Time

Andrew,

I must confess I didn't even know what I was going to write when I found this site. However I did know that I would write something. This forum has pushed me in new directions intellectually and I look forward to further correspondence.

Lemniscate




1225175041 Re: Time is God

How long is a piece of string?


Time

Lemniscate




1226018735 Re: The Flow of Time

Andrew,

In response to your GoT.ME link I have a few points I would like to moot.
Time is only considered to be money because our current society views it as such. In truth the entire concept of civilisation is based on the idea. A farmer spent time growing a crop that after harvesting was traded for something somebody else spent time producing allowing for the time required of every occupation to benefit from its alternate aspects forming a uniform whole. Master craftsmanship requires large amounts of time and costs more than something put together in an hour. A doctor studys for umpteen years to become qualified and is therefore on a higher salary. A high school dropout is thrust into the world of minimum wage employment because that is all they are qualified for. In society's opinion they lack the neccessary input of time required to ensure a high paying job. We understand that time is money because that is how it is portrayed. The relationship between money and evil is true enough, but, both of these concepts are the products of our own interpretations and the products of time. They do not personify time, for everything personifies time. To call time evil is to grasp one concept while ignoring the infinite number of alternate definitions. They can be grouped together but to classify them as being the Alpha and Omega would be like telling a rock it was evil, or a patch of ground that it was worth $XXXX. All the conclusions that you stated are plausible yet it is impossible to encompass the entirety of the topic at hand, for as soon as one conclusion is reached another appears in the distance.
&quot;A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step&quot;

Lemniscate




1226098684 Re: The Flow of Time

You make some good points. I know I stretch quite a bit to make some of the connections. The connections all are there, but in the broad sense that I make them there can be any number of other connections that could be made. Time is so amazing. Time is everything. And money is in essence a representation of time...its getting bizarre how intimately everything is related when it all breaks down.

I still haven't been able to digest the entire watersphere post enough to respond...but i am beginning to think that it is pretty complete in its thought.

I was inspired to write a little, however, and I'll post that in another forum topic. let me know what you think. Is it tomorrow down in New Zealand yet?




1226098800 What matters in life?

Parts of this writing was inspired by memories of a lecture by Alan Watts

Who are you? You are just an organism living on a planet in a solar system in a galaxy in a cluster in a supercluster in a universe…and who is to say that there aren’t bigger levels than a universe that we just cannot detect with light (energy)? We know that you as an organism can be divided into organs, composed of tissue, made of cells, governed by DNA, which is made of atoms, made of electrons, protons, and neutrons, which are made of quarks, and who is to say that this too doesn’t continue infinitely.

But as an organism, living on a planet for a finite amount of time, there are only three things that matter in your life. Your experiences, your memories, and your predictions.

Your experiences are a series of events which occur at a particular location in space, at a particular moment in time. Some experiences span large distances of space and time, others not. Whenever you remember something, the event occurring is “experiencing a memoryâ€. The only memories that you experience (for any duration of time) are the significant ones - the ones that have shaped your life...or is it the other way around? The only experiences that you remember (for any duration of time) are the significant ones, the ones that will shape your life. Both statements must be true.

So with increasing time, only the most significant events remain remembered. And as you experience events in present time, only the most significant events are committed to memory for any length of time. The less significant the event, the sooner it is forgotten.

Experiencing a memory is living in the past, experiencing an event is living in the present. Using your memories of experiences in the past to predict the event that will occur is living in the future.

Knowledge is nothing more than a set of rules deduced from events to help predict future events. The better you understand the true physical nature of events which occur, the more accurately you will be able to predict future events / the more knowledge and understanding you have. But then you just spend your whole life dissecting past events, instead of living in the present.

So life is a balance, a yin and a yang. During events that you decide are enjoyable, you want to experience the events and not worry about remembering them…but then after the event you want to be able to remember experiencing it. What governs whether or not we enjoy an event/experience? Our predictions based on the memories of similar events in the past.

For an event experienced for the first time, there is a large amount of uncertainty, which leads to fear in most organisms, and bravery/aggression in some. The more knowledge/understanding an organism has, the more likely that they will have some memory of a similar event to base predictions off of. The less knowledgeable the organism, the more likely it will interpret events with uncertainty and caution.

So events are more likely to be enjoyable the better you understand them, however the more you understand the less there is to enjoy. Getting there is the fun part. The mystery is what keeps it interesting. But perhaps it reaches a plateau, a point where you have reached equilibrium. This is the tipping point, so to speak. Now the more you understand, the less you can enjoy. You have to find the balance.




1226137722 Re: The Flow of Time

I have looked at your post and shall reply as soon as I am able.
No, for in New Zealand it is always yesterday, no wait, yes I am currently in tomorrow today.
Your today is our yesterday and our today is your tomorrow.

Greetings from Past, Present and Future!




1226184372 Re: What matters in life?

Memory,

The articulation of which is the greatest divider between us, and animals. Our ability to distinguish between the three states of past, present and future allows us to learn from our mistakes, prepare for the future and ensure our survival each day. Giving substance to the saying;

&quot;The only mistake is the one that you do not learn from&quot;

I agree with your 'significant' memory retention statements so far as the conscious mind is concerned, however, when dealing with the sub-conscious mind it is important to consider that every memory is retained until such a time as it becomes significant if indeed it ever does. For example, I remember watching a documentary on a fire chief who, after years of fighting fires attended one particular fire that didn't sit right with him. He had a peculiar feeling that something was wrong and ordered his men out of the building just before it imploded. This 'sixth sense' experienced by the fire chief was his sub-conscious mind scanning previous fires long since forgotten for possible similarities to base his thoughts upon, much the same as you stated above, after finding none it activated his fire fight or flight reflex. So while an event may not seem significant at the time and be forgotten it may be unearthed further along the track to assist in an entirely unexpected way hence your 'predictions'.

For instance, I remember the very instance I was introduced to the concept of the theory. I was 7 years old, sitting in assembly while a group of students gave speeches upon a variety of subjects. One speech in particular was upon the topic of laughter and the reasons behind the occurrence. The speaker in question stated that when a person became particularly amused 'happiness bubbles' formed in the stomach, bouncing round and floating up, tickling the throat causing laughter to occur. I remember being intrigued by this definition, imagine my dismay when I discovered it to be false! This posed another problem in my adolescent mind. How could someone think of an alternate reason when there was already a scientific explanation? Was it possible to actually invent reasons for things? It turns out that it was and I have spent the past 12 years accepting nothing at face value and drawing my own conclusions only after sufficient insight was gained. This memory had no significance until a few years ago when, in the middle of a theory, (chickens taking over the world) I thought about my fascination for the first time. Due to the significance that particular memory had garnered over the passing years it leapt to the fore, granting me a window into a time when things were just beginning to get interesting...

When it comes to new and as of yet unexperienced experiences our minds tend to prefer the known over the unknown, seeking comfort and security in familiarity rather than the uncertainty present with change. This of course is not always the case. Take for instance the recent presidential elections. The familiarity of having Bush as president provided no comfort or security. America voted for Obama who promised change, choosing unfamiliarity with security over familiarity with none. Excepting those ‘less knowledgeable organisms’ who fear what they cannot comprehend.

You said
So events are more likely to be enjoyable the better you understand them, however the more you understand the less there is to enjoy
where you should have said ‘So events are more likely to be enjoyable the better you understand them, however the more you understand the less there is to discover. The initial discovery of the most mundane things is a remarkable sight. Picture a child’s first trip to the beach, remember the awe that you felt when first presented with that vast expanse of horizon, unfathomable in its magnitude. Interesting point, the horizon exists only as a concept. Even though we can see it, it can never be reached.

What matters in life?
If I had to choose, I would have to say the small things.
The sound of birdsong in the morning, the sunrise painting the clouds with colour, the smell of fresh cut grass, warm sand between your toes or the taste of a coffee first thing in the morning.
People say small things amuse small minds but who is most amused each day? The person who enjoys the little things, or the person who ridicules the other, thinking such things beneath them?

Carpe Diem.

Perhaps there is a plateau, an equilibrium so to speak, where each day is dry and logical. The land of maturity where the memories of childhood are forgotten and the path that each day makes is over a infinitely level topography. I for one enjoy mountains and valleys and I hope that if I should ever reach that plateau, it would only be for a change of scenery.

Lemniscate




1226467630 Re: What matters in life?

Lem,

A couple of brief thoughts, as I should be modeling groundwater flow instead of hypothesizing...

On your suggestion that &quot;events are more likely to be enjoyable the better you understand them, however the more you understand the less there is to discover.&quot; - This is certainly true. But if you think about any particular skill...the better you get at the skill, the more you must obsess over it, and the more time you spend improving that skill. If you were to graph the rate of improvement versus time spent, it would have a power curve. Initially time invested would some improvement, followed by a time of rapid improvement. Eventually, whenever you become rather good at the skill, time spent practicing the skill yields little improvement. You've reached the point of diminishing returns.
[img:c08f1]http&#58;//www&#46;nada&#46;kth&#46;se/~ksig/myndir/polyfit&#46;jpg[/img:c08f1]
It is whenever the curve flattens out that your time becomes better spent elsewhere. As I said before, the more you understand the less there is to enjoy (which is the case whenever the curve changes slope). You have to work much harder to make new discoveries with the given skill, and your energy is better off being used to learn a new skill. Then you can again experience the steep part of the curve above, learning and discovering at a quicker rate.

But I guess sometimes once you have become knowledgeable at a certain task, its hard to stop performing the task and pick up a new hobby. Especially if the task is enjoyable to begin with.

Sticking with my initial writing and looking at what you said matters to you in life, it looks like you live more for the experiences. The things you describe are insignificant events which are enjoyed because of their beauty, simplicity, and acuteness. I agree that most of the best things in life aren't remembered in detail, and don't have a huge impact. People have the tendency to get caught up in their occupation or their research or their social life or any number of other things. They forget that they have a limited amount of time in their life and that ultimately the only thing that matters is happiness....and reproduction, from a species viewpoint.

It has to be true that the person who enjoys the small things enjoys life more than the belittler. It is probably the case that the belittler is so unhappy with their own life and is jealous of the ease at which the little things amuse the other person. The only way that the belittler can bring themselves some consolation and happiness is to convince themselves that whatever they are working towards is important. But what happens whenever they reach what they are working towards? Maybe they are rich, maybe they are powerful, maybe they are the most skilled person in the world at a specific trade. But did this bring happiness? Or did the belittler miss the whole point? If you get too caught up with the &quot;bigger things&quot; in life, you miss the experiences, the things that really matter. Don't live for the future, don't dwell on the past. Be one with time, move and live within present time.

Thanks for your post, it is helping to mold these thoughts into a more complete form. I think this will eventually have to be a formal page. Well, I better cut this short. Goodnight!

Andrew




1226620098 Re: What matters in life?

In Audio Production there is a similar curve which is called the universal time constant. It deals chiefly with capacitors and the length of time required to charge up and discharge the stored energy.
[img:e6be3]http&#58;//www&#46;ehobbycorner&#46;com/images/time_constant&#46;gif[/img:e6be3]
If i were to view this in a capacitorical manner, we may reach a point of 'little improvement' (5T) and it may embark upon a downward trajectory from that point onwards but; the energies initially employed to the skill are released until it reaches another capacitor, namely, someone else. This person then commences charging up until they reach the same place as the previous. The thing about capacitors is that they do not have to immediately release their charge, they have the capacity to store it for a period of time. Now think of books as capacitors and reading as the downward curve. From the peak to the zeropoint, visualise a book, the energy released through conveniently configured circles and lines (the alphabet) and the end result being a fraction of your own personal time curve. An important thing to note is that, we gather the energies for our own time curves by adding other peoples curves to the overall charge, resulting in a curve with elements of both old and new. Take 'The Sand Reckoner' by Archimedes for instance. It has held its 'charge' for over 2000 years even after its contents have been disproven. Even though its initial curve is long gone it serves the purpose of being an infinitesimal fraction of the present curves. So while it may reach the point of diminishing returns it does not have to remain so. We are influenced by EVERYTHING that has ever been. And the more we become influenced the faster the curve progression. When the printing press was invented and books became available to the common person we entered the beginnings of the industrial age, as people began to indulge their thirst for knowledge upon specific subjects of interest, half the work was already done for them. I have a half forgotten phrase in my mind which went a little something like,
&quot;how many of the worlds best blacksmiths lived in the stone age?&quot; Meaning, how many of the greatest minds existed before they could realise their potential? 150 years ago the average person had about as much knowledge as your average newspaper. Because of this information influx it was only natural that the industrial age gave way to the age of communication. Look back over the last one hundred years, the age of communication has given rise to a world that knows within the hour any significant event that occurs. Be it physical, intellectual or political it becomes known and extended upon by different opinions.
By all means do not be bogged down by one subject! Variety is the spice of life and it should be treated as such, rather than being viewed with the suburbian normalcy of 'The Jones's'. Where everything has its place and retirement begins at 55. We are all fractions of the whole, improving on or indeed doubling our knowledge base per annum.
Jack of all trades, Master of none.

Lemniscate

AndrewGustin
Site Admin
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Old & New IGITY Forums

Post by AndrewGustin » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:12 pm

1226722941 Re: What matters in life?

I rather enjoyed the human capacitor analogy. Our memories are just stored electrical signals anyway, right? It took me a couple reads but I am starting to make sense of most of it...a clever play on words at times. No time to channel my energy into writing tonight. But our correspondences have led me to be curious: as an organism, how much time have you spent on this rock (earth)? And what discipline have you chosen to perform to make money? Also, how long ago did you make the realizations that led you to my pages? I can't help but wonder...

Andrew




1226727935 Re: What matters in life?

19 years and 5 months approx.
Money? Not really an incentive really, I just want to make music.
If that music also makes money then so be it.
Alternatively, I do have a perpetual energy machine concept that should (theoretically) work. Not just perpetual energy but perpetual motion.
A prototype is in the works for the near future.
Earlier this year perhaps mid-January? Made nearly all the conclusions present in this forum then promptly forgot about it.
The unadulterated mind has no trouble thinking in innovative ways.




1226790242 Re: What matters in life?

A strange thing happened. As I read the last post, and more specifically about the perpetual motion/energy machine, I instantly had an idea of how a theoretical one could work. I figured I should post my idea before I hear about yours, just to see if they are similar. If so, maybe organisms do share some weird sort of collective unconscious.

The idea that flashed in my head as I read was one involving a series of somewhat powerful magnets. The magnets are aligned and secured in a circle, but instead of being aligned as they would naturally (north to south), you tilt the north ends toward the inside of the circle 30 degrees or so, in a clockwise direction.

On the inside of the circle of magnets is a smaller circle of magnets. These magnets are secured to a wheel and tilted with the north ends facing 30 degrees toward the outer circle in a counter-clockwise direction. The outer circle is secured and the inner wheel is allowed to rotate freely. The north forces of the magnets repel each other and spin the wheel, generating a perpetual motion machine...(if the magnets are strong enough to overcome air friction and friction of the wheel).

Now if a coil of wire is present around this setup or is attached to the spinning inner wheel, the magnetism should induce a current in the wire and thus also supply free perpetual energy.

Maybe your signature of circles and cycles helped to inspire the idea, or maybe I just read your mind...haha....i guess i have to wait to find out. If your idea is different, I should try to build my prototype.

If I just described something like your idea (or even if not), I think we must be on the same mental wavelength. Good thing we both speak English, or else we might have never known...which begs the question, how many non-english speaking people have come to the same conclusion? Maybe I should post translations of the theory...




1226790659 Re: What matters in life?

as soon as i posted that, i did an internet search to find similar working models of the idea. so my machine has already been invented by the collective unconscious...




1226876766 Re: What matters in life?

Yeah. Nearly. I am I must confess rather secretive about my idea. I too looked up the concept and found similar ones.
They are, each and everyone, flawed.
If it does work I have a mere 4 degrees of seperation between myself and high ranking officials in the United Nations whose patronage I shall request in regards to security measures.
The pure and simple truth is, magnets are the future.




1227074117 Re: What matters in life?

Man, I must admit I am intrigued by the idea, and by your confidence. It sounds like things could really take off for you in the next few years... I understand your secrecy - you need to secure a patent if it works. If your prototype works well, I'll be your US distributor!

I am a geologist by trade, yet I realize more than many of my colleagues that oil is no longer a good enough answer. So many of my classmates have gone to work for Chevron, Exxon, or small drilling companies. I hope to avoid that fate, but it is always a last resort.

I have to agree, there is a large future for magnets if you or someone else can figure out how to get perpetual free energy. This could also allow for so many other advances for alternative energy. Refueling stations for hydrogen powered cars could be outfitted with a magnet-energy machine and some solar cells and be unmanned. I mean with a free and clean energy source, and a supply of water (pumping well, utilities, and/or rain) or a large holding tank, it could be relatively cheap to build a small unmanned hydrogen refueling station.

But if the magnet idea works well enough, I see no reason why it couldn't be applied to cars too. Then we wouldn't even need to restructure the service station...however, this whole magnet thing might end up being short-lived if the poles reverse like they are overdue to do. At least we don't have to worry about it in our lifetimes.

Hopefully with Obama in office, America's attitude toward alternative energies will change, and we can quit rolling dice with our atmosphere and climate...my fingers are crossed. I may be a geologist, but I have to face the facts. We will need a lot more oil while we transition to something better, but the time to start transitioning is now.




1228424371 Re: the big debate

so very well said!




1228799607 Re: Time is God

Ok, just to clear up a few things,
I don't believe that time is God. However, I understand how the concept could be viewed as such. When it comes to theological discussions, at the end of the day its only an opinion and not concrete. Heres an analogy.
Belief systems should be viewed in much the same way as Music preference. While we may all listen to different Music does it mean that anyone is better than the other due to personal taste? Just because you listen to Hip Hop does it mean that you are 'superior' to a person who enjoys Reggae? Hardly. Do other people need opinions imposed upon them so they can see that Hip Hop should be their music of preference? I think not.




1230617765 The Time Holiday

I just wanted to post a quick message in recognition of the only holiday that strictly celebrates the passage of time, New Years. I hope all of you have a wonderful new years, and heres a cheers for another year of IGITY. I have some new ideas that I'm working on, and time is leading more and more people to the same conclusions. I really believe we are on to something here...we will see what this year has in store. Thanks to everyone who has given input and shared thoughts and ideas. Like an array of radio telescopes, more depth can be achieved whenever a group of open minded people collaborate.

I also plan to start up some sort of a discussion regarding our environment some time soon. Cannot say when for sure, as a new semester of grad school is likely going to be nearly as demanding as the prior...however I can say that it will be before 2010. Well before. I hope you all stick with it, and I hope time brings you nothing but good.

Andrew




1239582528 Re: The Time Holiday

It looked bad to have the most recent post to be in 2008, so at last I am adding a message. Looks as if new IGITY recruits are slowing, but this is an idea in its infancy. Who knows how long before its full potential is realized.

I have a lot of new ideas but I haven't had time to concentrate them into something worth reading. One thing that I will discuss is applying the idea of IGITY to preparing class notes. It seems strange, but I have found that with some classes the best thing to do is to time-allocate the notes, homeworks, and handouts into subject-related packets before a test. Then it is quick and easy to find any related material during the exam. This method attempts to make best use of time while using notes during an open-note exam. If God is Time, then it could be called God-allocating the notes. In addition to working great during crunch time, its sound, holy and pure.




1242082764 Religion and the Brain

I stumbled upon this very cool article about what parts of the brain are activated by different religious thoughts. These findings will have to be soon integrated into IGITY...Whenever I finish my thesis anyway....

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1245197722 food for thought

<!-- m --><a href="http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo ... tation/</a><!-- m -->

this has some major IGITY applicability....




1251175582 Just a Thought

I actually did come up with the whole theory of time being God a little while ago. (I was watching &quot;The Unborn&quot; and someone said something about what existed before time.)

But anyway, there's one thing that doesn't make much sense to me: the Big Bang theory. It was proposed that the Big Bang may have created time itself and there may or may not have been a cause of the Big Bang (quantum physics, just not at an atomic level.)

Also: &quot;It was Albert Einstein who taught us that time and space are not merely an immutable arena in which the great cosmic drama is acted out, but are part of the cast-part of the physical universe. As physical entities, time and space can change - suffer distortions - as a result of gravitational processes. Gravitational theory predicts that under the extreme conditions that prevailed in the early universe, space and time may have been so distorted that there existed a boundary, or &quot;singularity,&quot; at which the distortion of space-time was infinite, and therefore through which space and time cannot have continued. Thus, physics predicts that time was indeed bounded in the past as Augustine claimed. It did not stretch back for all eternity.&quot;

<!-- m --><a href="http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e1 ... achines/e1 ... -bang.html</a><!-- m -->




1259970621 Re: Interesting

I agree with you. I actually came to this conclusion myself through a different path. I believe God is a concept of man just like time. However, time just creeped up on me so I'll get back to you.




1261104578 Re: the big debate

To Andrew:

I have obviously figured out how to post to your blog-- ..I hope that you will leave a reply on my blog so as to have a conduit (link) from my blog back to yours yours.

The broken circle (infinity) is actually a sine wave where existence travels upon a circular axis iof time.
I hope you do not mind me leaving a link to my blog.

<!-- m --><a href="http://ruzlh.americaswhitehouse.com/the ... se.com/the ... existance/</a><!-- m -->

Thank you,
Russell

The Origins of Existence-R.Harvey

Universal existence is the product of Times' eternality from which all space, chaos, matter, energy, life and consciousness evolve and diverge into separate yet related entities.

R.Harvey 1-9-09

My theory is similar to Darwin's theory of evolution, only that space (ones simplistic perception of nothingness), chaos and matter ( ones simplistic perception of existence), energy, consciousness, and even life has branched off of the trunk of time. If one were to be intellectually honest with themselves they would be forced into a conclusion that Time is the only true eternal entity. Everything else, including ones perception of God, is purely conjecture. Therefore, solving the question of time would be the ultimate scientific and religeous discovery, or Nirvana --(the extinction of illusion or true enlightenment) so to speak. Did God create Time, or did Time create God through the evolution of mans consciousness? I tend to think it is the latter. Is it possible that Time in reality is God, and that most have misperceived God with their version of God/Time via the evolution of religious programming since the beginning? (The beginning ironically does not exist within Times eternality).. When all the smoke has cleared, Time marches on regardless of God and man's universal existence, or the lack there of. Time does not care if anything exists including mans varying perception of God.

The chicken nor the egg came first. Time was always there omnipuntly in varying amounts from the infinite to the infinitesimal. Time came first, last, and everywhere in between. This, my fellow man,-- is reality......

How about you? Give me feedback on the subject. I am open for suggestions-- and don't worry, you won't be struck by lightning because I have been theorizing about this for awhile and have yet to be smitted. In fact, I feel I have been enlightened through thought.

Try it.-thought that is.

Is space eternal like Time, or is Space actually Time? For that matter, is matter eternal or cyclical (oscillating universe), and how can the nothingness of space exist infinitely if not for it being cyclical with matter and time. I think space, energy and matter exist within a rotary axis stretched by Time into a sinusoidal wave (consisting of a very long wave length and low frequency with respect to existence, causing an oscillating universe to have a peak (positive half wave) and then a trough (negative half wave) and a big bang/crunch at every point in between, all four ( Time, space, energy, and matter ) having no starting or ending point. The rotary flow of Time is the catalist that propagates energy, matter, space and all of existence, even the life and death process, into oscillation throughout the cosmos, analageous to that of perpetual balls on a string. The common perception of everything (the universe) is infinite, when in reality there is nothing ( which is more than everything/matter ) to count. Therefore,

Infinity is equal to zero,
or infinitesimally infinite.(ruzlh/ 08-17-09)
this is not an oxymoron.




1261108390 Infinity--Space Vs. Matter

To Andrew and his readers:


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Why is there more space than matter?

How much Time did it take for God to create Time and nothing? See the paradox? Or was space/nothing eternal like Time, and how would nothing be created if nothing was there to create it? Another paradox. Is it possible for nothing to create itself? Through evolution, given enough Time, is it possible that Time can create nothing? I think the latter is the case. That's right, I think even nothing is an entity that has evolved by stemming from the trunk of Times' eternality.

If one were to add the total area of space/nothing and compare it to the total area of matter/something residing within the universe, would there not be more space/nothing? And if so, why. Did space and Time already exist before creation or the big bang 13.7 billion years ago?? If so, that would make space and Time the creater of matter/something , thereby theoretically making space and Time --- God.. There, I said it. Please don't tar and feather me or burn me at the stake, all of you religious fanatics (remember to be fanatical with religion is to be fanatically irreligious) out there. And if this is true, did Time create space or did space/nothing create Time? From nothing came Time or with Time came nothing and then eventually the evolution (Time the subliminal) of nothing into something.

Why is there more space than matter?

Why is there more nothing than something?

Just from the shear size of nothing makes nothing a substantial something. Why, when one peers up at the night sky, they focus on the stars and not the nothingness of space. Nothing is awe inspiring. Obviously space is more important than matter or there would be more matter than space, or at least an equal amount of both. I think without nothing and Time something (matter) would not exist.

Is space eternal like Time, or is Space actually Time? For that matter, is matter eternal or cyclical (oscillating universe), and how can the nothingness of space exist infinitely if not for it being cyclical with matter and time. I think space, energy and matter exist within a rotary axis stretched by Time into a sinusoidal wave consisting of a very long wave length and low frequency with respect to existence, causing an oscillating universe to have a peak (positive half wave) and then a trough (negative half wave) and a big bang/crunch at every point in between, all four ( Time, space, energy, and matter ) having no starting or ending point. The flow of Time is the catalist that propagates energy, matter, space and all of existence, even the life and death process, into oscillation throughout the cosmos, analageous to that of perpetual balls on a string. The common perception of everything (the universe) is infinite, when in reality there is nothing ( which is more than everything/matter ) to count. Therefore,

Infinity is equal to zero,
or infinitesimally infinite.(ruzlh/ 08-17-09)
this is not an oxymoron.

Imagine----its easy if you try..You may say that Im a dreamer ( or crazy )---but Im not the only one.... See the below titled &quot;Gods Math&quot; ..............Although I did think I was the only one for awhile..I am glad to see that I am not alone.

If zero is seen to contain all other numbers, then logically all other numbers must have a lesser value than that of zero. If zero is the largest value, the only way there can be lesser values is if we remove some measure of value from the whole of zero. For example, suppose that we take away a (-1) from zero. What remains in the absence of that (-1)? Zero is still very large but zero is no longer an absolute value containing all other numbers. Something has been removed from it. But what value does zero transform into to show that loss?

The answer is simply that zero minus (-1) equals 1. The missing (-1) causes zero to transform into the value 1. If zero contains all numbers within it, and we take away a value, zero then contains all numbers except the removed value. If we remove a negative one from zero the value of zero records
that loss by transforming into a positive one. It still contains all other numbers besides (-1). So it is still a very large number like zero. But it is no longer the complete whole of all numbers. It is one. A very large number one.

The above was taken from the link below.

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Russell




1261117072 Mandelbrot / Chaotic Symmetry

Chaotic Symmetry

Ones life is Times' Mandelbrot set where it is a fractal of existences' whole, born from another fractal of existence through iteration and so on. Infinite, yet simultaneously infinitesimal. Eternal, yet simultaneously terminal.

R.Harvey 2-10-09

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1262385743 2010

It is a new year and a new decade. This is going to be a big one for IGITY. I have had several people contact me having come to similar conclusions. More and more people are realizing the potential and elegant simplicity of IGITY. Later this year, after I finish my thesis and have more time, I plan to add a large amount of content and do some remodeling of the IGITY site. I have the new ideas in my head, just haven't had a chance to put them in text yet. Stay tuned towards the end of the summer for some major changes. Thanks, and may time bring you the best in 2010 and beyond!

Andrew




1262586818 The Origins of Existence--R.Harvey

Andrew:

You are not alone.


The Origins of Existence-R.Harvey


Universal existence is the product of Times' eternality from which all space, chaos, matter, energy, life and consciousness evolve and diverge into separate yet related entities.

R.Harvey 1-9-09

My theory is similar to Darwin's theory of evolution, only that space (ones simplistic perception of nothingness), chaos and matter ( ones simplistic perception of existence), energy, consciousness, and even life has branched off of the trunk of time. If one were to be intellectually honest with themselves they would be forced into a conclusion that Time is the only true eternal entity. Everything else, including ones perception of God, is purely conjecture. Therefore, solving the question of time would be the ultimate scientific and religeous discovery, or Nirvana --(the extinction of illusion or true enlightenment) so to speak. Did God create Time, or did Time create God through the evolution of mans consciousness? I tend to think it is the latter. Is it possible that Time in reality is God, and that most have misperceived God with their version of God/Time via the evolution of religious programming since the beginning? (The beginning ironically does not exist within Times eternality).. When all the smoke has cleared, Time marches on regardless of God and man's universal existence, or the lack there of. Time does not care if anything exists including mans varying perception of God.

The chicken nor the egg came first. Time was always there omnipuntly in varying amounts from the infinite to the infinitesimal. Time came first, last, and everywhere in between. This, my fellow man,-- is reality......

Russell

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1262588231 Time-- The Creator of Religion

Time created mans consciousness and the ability to reason through its own eternality, and man created God through his own conscious evolution. That is why there are so many different religions and cultures that have created their own versions of what they perceive as God.


For example:
The Aztec and Inca indians were Pagans in the mindset of the Catholic christians, and after the Spanish conquered the Incas and interbred with their culture the outcome was the 90% Catholicism of Central and South America. The change in culture due to the “survival of the fittest â€ shows that Darwin’s concept was right. The fittest do survive to live on and propogate not only their species, but their religion and culture as well. There was no divine intervention upon the Pagan Indians from the Christians perception of God, the Aztec and Incas simply got their butt kicked by the Spanish and the germs that were introduced to them because they did not have enough Time to evolve (notice how I chose to not use the word “developeâ€) an immunity. Hence, “survival of the fittestâ€. What Darwin failed to recognize, and what I am now trying to point out, is that it (the concept of the survival of the fittest) also applies to the evolution of a cultures religeous belief and their newly formed perception of God.
The different branches of culture are a resultant of the diverse divergences of consciousness propagated by the stemming and branching from the eternal trunk of Time, and in time — @#$! inevitably happens, including getting ones butt kicked.


Russell

From Theory — Origins of Existence, 2009/11/15 at 5:06 AM




1262728537 The Anticipation of Ones Own Birth

Is there an anticipation of ones own birth. I think not.
Before Time developed ourselves into a state of consciousness/reasoning ( or before birth and the programming from our enviroment/parents/DNA/relegion), No one that I have yet talked with remembers awaiting 13.7 billion years (the age of the universe proven via background micro-wave radiation-(the so-called beginning/end is also repetative and eternal and one of the same)) for their own birth just kicking back and playing Monopoly — or whatever one would do to pass 13.7 billion years of Time. I know because I have asked many if they remember seeing Dinosaurs (proven by fossiles( I guess one would have to believe in fossiles in order to believe in Dinosaurs)) and other events before Time allowed their consciousness to develope into a reasoning state, and all have answered — No.
The 13.7 billion years that surpassed while awaiting to be born and aquire consciousness seemed infinitesimal, not infinite (which are equal by the way), regardless of the large passing of Time and the many events that occured before their birth. Time passed within their future selves so quickly (similar to sleep or being unconscious or possibly dead) as if it did not exist. One day they opened their eyes and they were alive through the passage of Time by their own physical and mental developement, and with that passage of Time comes an EVOLUTION of either ignorance by CHOICE, forced ignorance through relentless programming of blind faith, or :

I think, therefore I logically am.
ruzlh
8-17-09




1262729173 Re: the big debate/To Limniscate

The circle that is not a circle that is still a cycle is a sine wave stretched by the rotary axis of time.

Russ




1263679316 Re: the big debate

It is all starting to tie together...many people independently arriving at the same conclusions!




1275933948 Re: The Origins of Existence--R.Harvey

someday which i dont remember exactly ,this idea of &quot;god is time&quot; struck me....later i discussed with my friends..and very later on,wen i googled it,i found this site....and am happy that am not the only person thinking so....lets approach this idea higly unbiased!!!!
i want to share my views here...and dont misunderstand me as an orthodox or stereotypical muslim wen i say these points...my knowldge is limited,and wat i check through ,is through the islamic views.....lets keep this a very healthy exchange of ideas and knowldge
1.in islam,we are asked to pray at 5 points of a day:::which highly can be interprested as god himself asking the humans to praise him,remember him at these points of time or remember thsese importatnt time change points of every day
2.in surah iqlas or absoluteness {{some scholars say its the test to check the god'ness of something}},quran says
Qul Hu-walaahu 'Ahad Say: He is Allah, the Monoreal!
'Allahus-Samad; Allah (the Monoreal) is Eternal.
Lam yalid, wa lam yuulad; The Monoreal does not take or give birth.
Walam yakul-la-Huu kufuwan 'ahad. And there is none comparable to the Monoreal.

these all supports to the equation god=time

3.time can also prove the theory of bing bang,existence of atomic particles{ elelctones,protones},may be evolution{{i doubt the exact structure of evolution theory}}},
4.in vedic scriptures{{and many others too},god is called as omnipresent--the time axis in me explains this,
5.time is unique,never created by ,nor creating{{no son no father},never started and never ending,doesnt have a shape,has the knowledge of everything happeningg in the universe, and soon.....

6.i believe in the ultimate truth proof:quran,....and i say god is time and its not jus that,i say time being the god has the ultimate power.....that simply says atheism is a bullshit..believe in god call watever name u wish,with respect coz time is god.....



1276634691 Re: Time is God

Hey,

I recently came to this same decision that God is our symbol or understandable image of time. Just like Jesus or whoever a certain religion calls &quot;the son&quot; is really the interpretation of the sun and its behavior. I feel that many of our beliefs are based on our ancestors appreciation and knowledge of the cosmos. Their appreciation has changed to stories to help them understand the seasons, the days, plagues, and anything else that happened that was outside of their comprehension. The more I substitute the word time for God, the more things make sense to me. Even the trinity of God (Time), The Son (Sun), and the Spirit (People or Life in general that &quot;realize&quot; time). This is a lot like the greeks did when they created the god of love or war or wisdom. These gods helped them to understand life as they knew it.

I have been trying to come up with some idea of God that works for everyone that is and ever was. Time is the only thing that I could think of. Also, nothing would exist without time. That has been mentioned before, but that is important to me because I like to look at the backbone of things. For instance, I have also been researching how the brain works. I was wondering if making changes in the brain makes changes in our reality... which it does... but is that really the backbone of existance or is it DNA or RNA? What connects all life? I am also trying to discover how this information can be used to be helpful and how we can truely control our lives. What is really possible and what is really impossible?




1279815028 Mistranslated?

So Hi, I'm new to the forum, and I have to say, this is kinda weird.

In one of the best ways.

I was raised Independent Fundamental Baptist, and was saved and devout for years, but around the time I was 16 I started to doubt the &quot;truth&quot; of the Bible. It just all seemed so...human. Like instead of letting God be supernatural in every way, they assigned so many flawed human traits to the concept of God and his power. That and the King James Version of the bible was completed in 1611, under the oversight of King James, who kept, threw out, and rewrote what they saw fit of the religious writings of the time, to form THEIR image of God and religion.

No, I'm not falling for it.

So I have spent the last 8 years just trying to decide what I believe about God and his impact on our lives. I went through several thoughts before arriving where I did last night.

At first I simply rejected the idea of God as a whole. But that didn't satisfy me, because God is supposed to be a supreme, omnipotent, omnipresent being, and while I may not believe in a specific being with those qualities, there are things in this world and in this universe that possess more of those qualities than I do, so eventually something should possess enough of them to be considered God-like.

Last night it finally hit me. I was talking to my fiance, who not only is Greek, but just took a Greek Mythology course at the local university. We were talking about the Bible and its creation, and for some reason the idea sparked. The Greek titan Chronos was the God of Time, but to the Greeks, he WAS time, his very being embodied time. Meaning they could use the word interchangeably

Then I got to thinking, some of the old testament scrolls used to create the old testament were Greek scrolls, what if they used the word Chronos to mean time, but with the understanding of Greek culture that 17th century England had, what if it was mistranslated to God, or maybe purposely mistranslated to God.

Then it got me thinking what if you replace the word God with Time anywhere, anyplace, anytime, something interesting happens. The supernatural qualities and lessons of God become well known lessons in science, geography, life, love, death, and every other aspect of life. They are both supreme, they are both omnipresent, they are both omnipotent, they are undeniable. Nobody can really deny time, even if they don't believe in God. Even if you don't believe in The God, you have to agree that everyone and everything everywhere does share one thing in common, they all exist. To say something doesn't exist is fundamentally flawed. If it can be experienced in any way, it exists. Even a thought influences the real world. So existence is the basis on which everything relies.

And at the core of existence, the fact that in order to make anything exist, you need one thing. Time for it to exist.

So everything ever relies on time, understands time, and feels time. Time carries us through life, bumps us into soul-mates, teaches us lessons, and heals our wounds. It is fair to all, and unfair to all. It simply is.

I don't know if you agree with any of this or don't agree, but this is the conclusion that I came up with. God is Time.

My only question to pose to you is, what of the afterlife? What is the afterlife, without the biblical God to judge us to Heaven or Hell? Is there a Heaven and Hell, or do we simply become part of Time?




1281145471 Re: Time is God

3 - 4 hours ago this same thing just hit me. &quot;Time is God&quot;. Its so obvious. Prob the closest to a halelulja moment that i ever get.
I'm very new to all of this. But what the last hours of thinking gave me before i found this website was pretty mutch the following:

Time would exist without everything, but we would not exist without Time.
We are a result of Time therefore Time is a part of us and we are a part of Time.

But sems like i have a lot of thinking and a lot of googling to do the next copule of days to come ^^


I'm from Gotland/Sweden




1281199356 Re: Time is God

interesting




1286044794 Re: Mistranslated?

Knightmare,

I just wanted to thank you for your post. You bring up a lot of interesting points and it is refreshing to get some new input into my ideas. I hope to find time to think and write on your thoughts very soon. I'm in the process of trying to finish up my Master's Thesis, so I haven't had as much time as I wish I did to work on IGITY. Please understand that I am quite interested in the questions you bring up, and I will respond as soon as I can dedicate the attention that is deserved. In the meantime, feel free to post any other thoughts or ideas that you have! It is great to have collective thought on the issue...




1289700248 Re: The Quest continues (God Machine)

Mechanical machines are made by man Biological machines are manufactured by God. God is a machine on a cosmic level created by space time and energy. One way to describe what I am thinking of picture a mass of of electic conduents now connect all the ends and splice them together add electricty it should be selfsustaining since the energy has nowhere to go with no open ends. Geting the power into the wires would pose a problem but what if it was always there just needed a kick start something similar to a big bang? Still can't be proven by science but it still explains why science works and magic doesn't.




1289648982 Re: The Quest continues (God Machine)

What of the afterlife? Warning you may not like my current answer! Every machine needs Fuel. Yes I know this is a harsh thought that most will be unwilling to accept. But maybe that is the reason behind the lies of religion to hide the truth from the meek. Personally I like the idea of becoming the fuel of god after death it makes me feel useful and gives life a purpose beyond the selfish desires of heaven and hell.




1289409533 Re: Time is God

Ps sorry about all the typos but I'm doing this with my phone am to lazy to attempt to look for all the right keys




1289552896 The Quest continues (God Machine)

I have come to the conclusion that God is not Time, but the Energy that flows through time not unlike an electric charge though a cable or Blood through the body with out that energy Time is just emepty space.Space is a Vast network of time and God is the power that sets things in to motion and makes things happen. They say that god made man in his image and they say that the human body is a machine then is it off limits to consider the possibility that God is a Machine? Black holes are the circuits stars are the outlets and the Big bang was the on switch? Energy can be transformed (evolution) but is always present. Science can not prove my theory however consider this My theory Does prove Science. Its still a work in progress




1289374240 Re: Time is God

Time explains everything both divine&amp;logic. In time there is no line between God&amp;Science. These are the truths that I have come up with myself only recently did I decide to see if any body eles was of the same mind and I find this IGITY thing very similar to my own theory however I also believe that it does not end here.to truly know God you would need to know everything from the Alpha to the Omega to have that infomation Time is God, God is the Alpha&amp;the Omega yet time has no begining nor end. Time can not be mesured! Time will Remain long after the Fall of History




1289374543 Re: Time is God

Another idea of mine. If God is Time then the Theory of alternate timelimes sugest multiple Gods




1289409371 Re: Time is God .

On the issue of blackwholes well the thing is Time is not everywheres but everywheres is in time therefore these black holes in which consume everything are in fact themselves consumed by time. Perhaps blackholes are the twist or curves of time. Time is God but Time is not limited to time. Time. Every thing happens in Time even the consumtion of both Light and Matter. So the answer to the great question is now as it has always been The coninued survivel of life untill history ends (The Future). We are here now and that is all that matters




1324602408 New IGITY - End of the World

A complete overhaul of the content that is IGITY will be taking place over the next year. The plan is for the grand unveiling of the new website on the end of the world, December 21, 2012. If the world ends, nobody will ever know...but if it doesn't, the new IGITY will be ready to help bring humanity into the next phase of its existence. I will try to post some teasers and food for thought over the coming months as I begin a new job and finish graduate school. As always, I would love to have your thoughts and input, so feel free to post on this board or contact me personally. Thank you for your interest in my ideas! There is a big change coming, and IGITY will only continue to develop. Check back periodically for more news!!

-Andrew




1328755619 When Independent Minds Converge

It was with overwhelming joy that I happened upon Andrew's website last night. With great excitement I contacted Andrew to tell him that he is indeed one of many who seem to be simultaneously developing this philosophy.
With hands stretched out I am hoping that we can help each other develop a new world/universal view of the role humanity plays during the limited time we have here in this universe.
With that end in mind I would like to invite all those who have a moment to check out my first public posting of my idea that can be found by following the link below. It is just a rough overview of my embryonic idea. Although it occurred to me years ago, it is interesting how empty the idea seems when first put on paper.
Since that post I have decided to write a book-length essay on the ideological view point and have already expanded the idea to 9 separate chapters to better develop it and allow it to breath, taking in more physics, astronomy, religion, sociology and psychology.

Cheers!
Daniel Lewandowski


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1329585340 Re: When Independent Minds Converge

I am intrigued by the possibilities that your essay offers. Thank you for posting this information on the discussion board. The best way to progress our collective thoughts is to openly collaborate, and I am excited by the prospects of working with you and developing our ideas. Time hasn't given me much freedom to think or write on IGITY lately, but the future is looking bright. I read through the outline of the essay and you do a wonderful job of thoroughly covering all angles of the topic. In the coming months, I should have the time to read through the chapters and offer some input. I will also begin creating a new IGITY website with completely revised content organized as the interconnected web of humanity is.

Daniel: I sincerely welcome our new friendship and look forward to our future collaborations.

Others: please keep checking back for new developments and discussions, and feel free to contribute your own thoughts and ideas!




1335400423 Re: Mistranslated?
&quot;knightmare42&quot;:a5c8f wrote: So everything ever relies on time, understands time, and feels time. Time carries us through life, bumps us into soul-mates, teaches us lessons, and heals our wounds. It is fair to all, and unfair to all. It simply is.
[/quote:a5c8f]
This is the common thread that runs through humanity. This makes all people the same. We all must deal with time and time is the same for all of us. Once I realized this, it seemed easy to understand many of the things that people do.




1335401233 Re: The Origins of Existence--R.Harvey
&quot;Russ&quot;:1dece wrote: Time does not care if anything exists including mans varying perception of God.
[/quote:1dece]
For sure Time exists; God - who knows? If I'm going to make an effort to understand Life then I'm going to focus on something that I 100% know affects me.




1335402112 Re: Interesting
&quot;allintheyes&quot;:1e3ef wrote: I believe God is a concept of man just like time.
[/quote:1e3ef]
I disagree. Time is not a concept. It is a real thing. We all must deal with the properties of Time, all the time. I liken it to fish. They live in the ocean and they are bound by the nature of the ocean. They have no control over it but their lives are controlled by it and they must adapt to it. We live in a Sea of Time.




1335404291 Re: When Independent Minds Converge

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